Talk:Ajax (web technology)
I have to object to this article, just as with AJAX frameworks. I think that the use of the word "AJAX" is over-broad, and we should try hard to restrict it, perhaps even avoid it. It's become a marketing buzzword. It refers to techniques where one updates part of a page with content without updating the whole page. Which is fine, it's part of developing web applications. I think we should do as following:
- have a page on practices in web application development, perhaps something like web applications
I think we need to do some fairly fundamental butchering of this set of articles to make them even close to approval quality. --Tom Morris 18:17, 10 August 2008 (CDT)
- Yep, I've been holding off any significant butchering to give the Eduzendiums a chance to improve it. Once the Eduzendium deadline is over, I'm going to have a go at significantly reworking it. --Tom Morris 13:53, 12 August 2008 (CDT)
- Please do not "butcher" this article without first justifying to me and the community of editors in Computers why there is a need to do so. I welcome your continuing comments on and authoring of it, but I don't particularly welcome what seems like a threat to replace the whole thing with a creation of your own without significant further discussion.Pat Palmer 17:50, 12 August 2008 (CDT)
- Tom, I see that we are actually in agreement then. The article as it now stands is, well, sloppy about many details, and further, it contains (or contained--I haven't read it all yet) numerous misconceptions or downright errors. We need not wait to make corrections and improvements of this sort. Please go to it at any point you feel ready. For example, earlier today there were misconceptions about XML being required, and about which DOM is involved, and even the definition at the top of the article was initially not precise (I tried to make it more so). So, no problem, have a go at fixing the stuff that needs fixing. I want students to experience the collaborative process.Pat Palmer 19:17, 12 August 2008 (CDT)
DOM, XHTML and XML confusion
archiving a statement; not sure it belongs
The statement I've removed is:
Although I don't doubt that someone wrote the above, but there is no reason I can imagine that the mere fact that a page uses Ajax guarantees ANY of these things: progressive enhancement, graceful degradation and adherence to Web standards. So I'm leaving this here until I get a chance to discuss it with you (in class, I hope).Pat Palmer 19:06, 12 August 2008 (CDT)
- Oh yeah, and Ajax cures world hunger too.Pat Palmer 19:49, 12 August 2008 (CDT)
AJAX or Ajax? need consistency
I personally don't care which, but please pick either AJAX or Ajax and stick with it throughout the article (after mentioning initially that both may be used).Pat Palmer 19:20, 12 August 2008 (CDT)
- It has been taken care of. Dhawal Sehgal
Me router person. Push packets. Ugh
Actually, I had to remember that IPSec has a DOI, not a DOM. I don't know whether the security people were having an in-joke there, because DOI-100, which had nothing to do with IPSec Domain of Interpretation, was a long-obsolete message header format for special security traffic that was an overlay on a network that doesn't exist any more.
So, I have no ego on being corrected about anything in the Web and related areas. With routing, it might be "this is the most powerful router in the world. I can't remember if I have a slot left in the crossbar fabric. Feeling lucky, punk?" :-)
There is an idea rattling around in the upper layers of my lower layers brain, and perhaps it might help here. As a guess, what might be closer to a visual metaphor for AJAX might be some of the levels of abstraction in multiple, nested "network management" frameworks. There were multiple mappings, in different abstract and real notations, at different places in the network, depending on one's viewpoint. There were nestings for what the end user saw delivered in quality of service, what the provider to the customer saw inbetween his side of the delivery interfaces, and what we saw as both per-hop-behavior and per-internal-network behavior inside the cloud.
I wish we had an electronic whiteboard or some other visual collaboration technique; I've yet to find a mindmap program that was remotely as powerful. Would it be useful, Pat, to start out with a drawing -- I might just sketch and scan -- that broke out the pieces without naming them? This is an area to be cautious, because one of the things that doomed OSI was being too compulsive about layering, and, especially, not understanding that thee were parallel channels for management and control as well as for user data flow. My naive sense is that AJAX might be graphically be represented by a set of "stacks" in parallel, or perhaps drawing separately the server, wire/network, and client.
From my limited knowledge of AJAX, my sense is that there indeed might to be a modeling of parallel flows, and possibly both different reference interfaces AND abstract notations involved. I'm wondering if it would help to have a diagram of deliberately unlabeled boxes and connectors, simply to establish what is happening in the background, foreground, and middleground. That is the only way we sometimes could explain interprovider networks, with multiple nested instances of address spaces and protocol states.
Howard C. Berkowitz 19:28, 12 August 2008 (CDT)
"I am only an egg", which is an admittedly dated reference that I hope someone will get, but my suspicion is that with the collisions in terminology, it would be wise for some Old One to put a citation on each component: the reference specification for that particular thing. Obviously, the XHTML and XML DOMs aren't going to be the same specification (consciously avoiding the overloaded words "document" and "object").
As a writing convention, I'd like to suggest that we go overboard, if need be, to be sure each new reference to a term ties to a citation, even if it is just <ref>W3C foo specification for bar</ref>, repeated many times. Howard C. Berkowitz 19:36, 12 August 2008 (CDT)
I agree that there's a conceptual benefit to
If there is a problem, and there are different languages and infrastructure at both ends, what is the troubleshooting procedure if the programmers at both ends are not familiar with one another's environment? Down in the network layer, I can put Wireshark on the line and get a packet trace that gives me an idea of the exchanges. Is there an equivalent debugger for Ajax? Howard C. Berkowitz 15:21, 15 August 2008 (CDT)
- Zucker, Daniel F. (September + October 2007)), "Fresh: nuts and bolts: What does AJAX mean for you?", interactions 14 (5)